Name: Women in Supply Chain
Uploaded: 2026-05-13T16:16:41.956Z
Duration: 1 h 12 s
Description: Women in Supply Chain

Transcript for "Women in Supply Chain": Before Amazon Business, buying for work was chaotic. Now it's easy to find products from thousands of suppliers in one place. Save on every type of purchase, from individual items to bulk orders. At any time, you can view your spending on pre built easy to use dashboards. Plus, you can free up cash flow if you choose to extend payment deadlines and view and approve your team's purchases easily. With Amazon Business, things just got a lot more manageable. Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's webinar in partnership with Amazon Business. Our title today is women in supply chain, advancing leadership and innovation. The supply chain industry is undergoing a significant transformation. While technology is a major driver, the real catalyst for innovation is the people that are behind the strategy. Today, we focus on a critical part of that, the advancement of women into leadership roles. This conversation isn't just about representation. It's about performance, leadership, and the future of the industry. So I'm Ella Wilkinson, director of BizClick Studio and your host for the day. And I'm thrilled to be joined by Emma Lloydon, head of third party risk management at Santander UK, Mira Kahonan, group head of procurement at Fornham, and Jared Glover, procurement director of Santander UK. So I've given you all a very, very quick introduction there, but I would love if each of you could tell me a little bit more about who you are and why you've joined us today. So if I can start with you, Emma. Yeah. Thank you. So, I've been working in the financial sector for nearly nineteen years now, and as a woman who has had opportunities, and sponsorship in relation to my career progression, and someone who's passionate about, development for others and and leadership. And I thought this is really a good opportunity to talk about some of the experience that I've had and some of the, ways in which I see that we can support and collaborate together to encourage diversity. Oh, thank you so much, Emma, for joining us today, and I'm super excited to hear your views on our conversation going forward. So, Meera, if I throw it to you next. Well, I've been working in the supply, supply chain and procurement for fifteen years, and I you know, I'm I'm a big advocate for having conversations around diversity and and especially women in the supply chain. I know we we have been probably not represented as much as, you know, our our male colleagues. So I think, as far as for me, I've had a long career in supply chain, and I've seen a lot of change. And that's why I think this is a great conversation to have, and I'm really happy to be here having it. Oh, well, we're very happy that you've come to join us. So let's talk to a male then a male colleague. So, Jared, tell me who you are and why you got here. Hi. So I'm Jared. So I look after the cost management of procurement centers, so finance and procurement. And, look, this is thematically common across both procurement and finance that we need to increase the diversity of thought. But I think within finance, finance is slightly more structured, as a career, and you have people that enter, generally speaking, on finance qualifications, and they have quite structured progression through that. Whereas through procurement, I see people entering from many different angles. Perhaps the path to progression is less clear for people. And it's most important that procurement have diversity of thought because we have diversity of thought in procurement, you gain better results. Fabulous. Well, it's nice to have an ally on board of us. So let's move into our first discussion point here then where we're looking at that that baseline. So industry research has shown that while women are very well represented at entry level positions, there's actually a significant drop off when it gets to mid management and executive level. So this is an open question. What factors contribute to the reduction in representation at mid management within, you know and the senior levels within supply chain? Can I Absolutely? Yeah. Please jump in. I so I think this is I think the pipeline things, due to sort of compounding small factors, I don't think there's, really a big reason for it. But often, the senior population skews to male if you think about supply chain, for example, it reflects really who entered, the supply chain roles twenty years ago or thirty years ago in manufacturing logistics. And and, of course, as those people progress, then, you know, it was predominantly male thirty years ago or twenty years ago. Also, I think in the especially in the sort of mid management and mid career point, that also collides with a lot of caregiving years where the traditional norm of supply chain is it is sometimes it gets quite critical. There's early starts. You need to be on the plan floor. There's lots of travel, you know, crisis availability. A lot of women have had caring responsibilities in those mid career, points in time, and I think that has also worked to filter out some women, from from these roles and to be able to progress in the same speed as their male counterparts. So they're just two two things that I think are part of the sort of compounding factors that that that, you know, make this problem. Emma, Jared, any thoughts? I think I would, I guess, sort of a different lens on that question. And, again, from my personal experience, it's about how we as individuals take personal responsibility and create opportunities for ourselves. So how we can, become more self advocates, and how, again, we can collaborate to, look at how using, you know, the structures and frameworks that we have in place from a personal development and talent, potential, perspective use the using those as a way in in which we can, progress and and, move into into more senior roles and leadership roles more generally. Do you think that there is a an issue really within the senior roles being taken by men? Because that's because as they developed it, you know, it was predominantly a male sector, and now it's become more female. I think it's I I think it's I said there's there's lots of, like, multiple factors involved. I think from my personal experience, I think it's more about the individual and the sponsorship and Mhmm. The relationships that I've had in in the workplace that have enabled me to, have opportunities and broaden my skill set more generally in order to create those, kind of agnostic skill sets that we need as leaders. So I think so from a personal perspective, I I don't see these, the the kind of barriers. I I see the the opportunities that we have presented to us because of that structure within within which we work. So do you think then supply chain as an industry is evolving into, you know, a more attractive, place for for a woman to join. Yeah. I I think again, like, if I I think about, in in my sector and and the other sectors that I work alongside, I think that there are many women that are involved in in leadership roles and that they, require a number of different capabilities. So, you know, strategic thinking, commercial, acumen, but also, curiosity and innovation more. So I think as, supply chain and, the the value that that adds as a strategic capability is understood more broadly across the organization, so that broader skill set and and the the, I guess, the capabilities that we have, we can we can fit into those roles. So, Jared, I'm I'm keen to hear from you. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, there there are many things that I'm not qualified to talk about here. But I think I'd say the way that I can see the industry developing now and so you got representatives of two different companies that are very different procurement industries here. So sometimes they're mainly indirect. So we have a very different kind of purchasing base than than perhaps other companies may do. But with the advent of AI and disruption that I see that bring into procurement supply chain, The skill set that is needed for individuals focuses a lot more, I think, on soft skills, on people having that kind of EQ, not IQ. So understanding how emotionally to deal with people and and how to manage that quality of this discussion. And without damning, you know, all men's one one kind of generalism, generically, you will find that women have stronger EQ, and from my experience, I'm stronger communicators. So from my point of view, the disruptors that we have impacting procurement now leave it well positioned to have a greater female representation at a higher level because the skill sets that it's it seems are more innate to to women or perhaps, you know, developed more innately at a younger age, I think, position very well for the impact they are. Well, that's that's amazing to hear actually that you think that women possess more of those those soft skills as we say. Let's look then at the organizations. So what organizational structures or cultural dynamics continue to influence progression into those leadership roles for women? Mira, if I throw to you. Yeah. I feel like I feel like I'm the, I don't know if I I consider myself to be sort of a brutal realist or I've just seen this industry change a lot in the last ten years. So fifteen years when I started, there was really an always on culture, especially in the supply chain. There was a lot of romanticizing of the firefighting, you know, and the crisis resolving the crisis. There was a bit of, like, the hero narrative. And, of course, it changes. If if you're in a different type of industry where I suppose the supply chain is not, commodities that have a lot of risk to them, then this is not the case. But, certainly, you know, the reason why the pipeline has been what it has been historically and why there have been less women is that sort of culture that's been there. Also, there's been you know, in my point of view, there's been a lot of informal decision making, and still is. So the dynamics that exist are, you know, succession discussions, the who gets the stretch project, who who's sort of ready, in the corridor discussions, all of that still happens. Like, we can't say that it doesn't. So if if you're not in the room, then you're not in the conversation. So I think that's something that especially for us, if we're females in supply chain, we just have to be alive to that so we can play the game, so to speak. And then also, I think that the definition of leadership that has been quite narrow, historically, you know, a strong woman or a direct woman, who behaves the same way or as potentially a fee, like, a male counterpart might have been labeled difficult to work with Mhmm. Or not strategic. And I think this this kind of conversation around women and women's skills and also, I guess, like, my colleague said in the in the call, these soft skills are getting, talked about a lot more in a positive way. So that dialogue is also changing how how the culture is changing and how people get promoted. So, Emma, I'm interested to hear your views on this then. I feel like the the narrative there was actually the women just need to get themselves in the room to make sure that they're part of those conversations, and that's something that you obviously have felt like you've been able to do during your career. Yeah. So I think that I, again, I think I've been lucky in that I have had successful female role models who have worked in those positions, which where we we've done the twenty four seven, and we've been, required for those types of active those types of roles and and responsibilities, and aspirational women who are who I guess you've got you know, goes back to that saying you've got to see it to be it. So I've been fortunate enough to to see that, to work alongside that, and to learn from that. And in terms of what how I how I who I want to be as a leader, and also to understand some of the, you know, the decisions that you have to make in in order to progress. And as I said, I think it comes back to that personal responsibility that we have to to take those opportunities and and run with them and take risks, and put yourself in that in that position. There's a there's a mantra that I heard which I, stood for, you know, mantras work for some people. They don't for all. But, if not you, then who? And if not now, then when? And I think, although I've only had that recently, it's probably something that I've it resonates with me in terms of how I've decide the decisions that I've made around my career and what I've chosen to do and the opportunities that I've had all have been presented to me to stretch and go beyond my core expertise, which I think when we're talking about structure and framework again, that links back to that talent, identification, having having sponsorship, and advocacy around you, so that you can take, those opportunities with confidence and self belief. I think that's really important as well, and we'll get on to mentorship and sponsorship in a minute. But, also, Mira, you mentioned that you've seen a lot of change over the last ten years. So so, Jared, I'm gonna throw it to you first. What improvements have you seen in support for your female leaders, the female coworkers you have over the past decade? Well, just before we do step onto that, I I think I've I mean, use the word lucky to describe herself where I I don't think that's the case. So I don't think it's about luck. It's about putting the effort in, being seen and recognized, and you build your own luck. And I don't want anyone to listen to this podcast and think that where Emory is sort of in relation to luck because Emory's in our role. Emory's very good at our role and works very hard. So just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before we step on to the rest. So, look, COVID's been a huge change for us, and and I think COVID has changed working relationships, which allow a greater degree of flexibility than we used to have. I completely agree with Mira that I think all the dog culture has invaded, and I actually think COVID was a huge enabler of that, and not in a positive way. That you've moved from being kind of in office to on Teams. Your mobile device is now expected. Well, not expected. Your mobile device is on at all times, and you are always available. Mhmm. And there's a fascinating article in the Feet this week about people who retire find it incredibly difficult to filter out that always on culture and basically just responding to spam emails immediately because that's what they've been trying to do over a period of time work. But I think COVID has given us the flexibility, and I think it allowed leaders to be more flexible and to recognize flexibility that they want and to push that down in the organization. And again, Mira made a point at the start, which I completely agree with, but I think there's a societal piece where society expects women to be caregivers, and it's ingrained. I'm down on my on my primary scores as first response for when when my child's in. I can tell you who they ring, and it's not me. And that is, unfortunately, an impact to society and and the way that things work, and we need to allow flexibility around that and make sure that we have people in those senior roles that have that perspective. Before I was a parent, I didn't understand what parents' lives were like. Obviously, there's great joy, but there's also, you know, some stresses that they put into your world. And I think it's really difficult to try and try and think that you can understand the context of everyone's life from afar. You've got to allow that flexibility and that empowerment. I think COVID did give us an opportunity to do that. It's just how well we maintain that as there's more pressure to return to office, making sure that that return to office allows that flexibility around it as well. So, Meera, I'm really inter intrigued as well then to hear from you. You said, obviously, you've seen this you've seen the supply chain world change loads in the last decade. Is that in a positive way or a negative way or a bit of both like Jared just said? Yeah. Well, I can tell you, so I became a chief procurement officer when I was 40. So just past my thirties, and I thought you know? And and it was a lot of hard work. It it did require to do all the things that we've been talking about, you know, to do good work, to be seen, to be, you know, to really be part of the conversation and and and making my own luck. But I went to an event that was a CPO event, and and this was about seven years ago. And, I was the only female there. And that, to me, was a big sort of jolt in the face to say, where are all the other, you know, where where's the other CPOs, the the females? And I've seen that change over the last, you know, five plus years. So there's definitely more, really senior female appointments being made. And I I I smile every time I see it. You know, big organizations like half times and, you know, Ford. You know, supply chains are being led by females. So I I I have seen this change myself. And it seems to be that, you know, with Jared's point, I think COVID actually did more for women in terms of, being able to do that hybrid working and removed a lot of the structural barriers of of not being able to be physically as present as potentially as males due to this whole family dynamic of of this caregiving being a big part of women's lives. So we've obviously mentioned there that the women's responsibilities, you know, are we're we're the assumption, we're the give we're the caregiver, we're the we're the emergency contact at the school. But within work as well, do you think women need to have a cross functional experience to to to prove themselves in a leadership capacity. I could if I can just briefly say, I think that is one of the most underrated career moves out there. So if you think that, you know, you need technical skills or supply chain procurement skills to be promoted, I think that's just the ticket to ride these days. That sort of cross functional, understanding of the business is is really not, you know, it's not a step down. It's a it's a step sideways, but in a way, it's a step up because it gives you it then you find those sponsors. So that's how I've personally found sponsors in my career where I went sideways and I went into the business to learn about how to use their language and and really, you know, grow the networks. And those people have been fundamental to my role, the sponsors that I found from the business doing a sideways cross functional move. So, yeah, I'm I'm a big advocate for that. Absolutely. So, right, we've we've mentioned sponsors and mentors. So let's just move on to this this section. But but how do you think mentorship and sponsorship differ in terms of their impact on the career progression, and how should organizations approach both? I'm actually gonna refer it to you first, Emma. Yes. I I think as I've mentioned a couple of times, so I think sponsorship is about, having somebody who is your advocate who can support with create helping with those opportunities, looking at your personal development, the and and kind of creating the action orientated activity that you need to do. And I think that that's really invaluable in terms of the the the actions that you can take and the the visibility that you can have and the opportunities you get to to build in your experience and and build on those skills. I think with, mentorship and and, obviously, there's structured frameworks in place around that too. I think that as, is there for that kind of guidance and and support and kind of insight and, you know, feedback at times on how to approach different scenarios. So they're they're very different. And I think having both, obviously, helps you helps you in different ways and how you use those as part of your again, as as your personal growth and development, can it's obviously beneficial. So so, Meera, then in terms of your sponsorship, what have you what have you gained from those experiences? Well, for one, I I got access to different types of projects, and I was requested to lead particular, high profile, high risk, but also high reward projects within the organization that I was working from because I had this sponsor that had identified that, you know, I was working hard and I was delivering, and I was I was also up for the challenge. So anything that would seem scary to anyone else in the organization, I made a point to saying, well, I'm I'm the person that will will give it will give it a go, that will run it, and and will want to be successful in it. So that's, that's how they directly, allowed me to get leadership of those projects, which then allowed me to get visibility to very senior people in the organization. And, of course, once you get into those rooms, you learn a lot. You you know, not only is your career progressing because you're you're getting experience and and you're getting, you're building relationship, but then you get the visibility. You know? You you build your brand within the organization, and I could have not done that by myself. So, you know, an important senior sponsor really helped me, get into those rooms. And that visibility is really, really key when you're trying to climb the ladder as a as a female. So There. So, Jared, then from from a leadership perspective then, how do you think organizations should approach mentorship programs, sponsorship programs? Is this an should this be a formal thing or a more informal basis? So my my personal view, and I I think this kind of resonates with with what Mira and and Emerick just said is sponsorships earned. So you don't have a sponsorship program. People will see you, and they will sponsor you you into roles because there there's a virtuous circle there. You see someone good doing a good job, and you say, this person good who's doing a good job could go and do a good job over there. And if they're successful, people think that person's really good at that job, but also isn't this person great at saying who the good people are in the organization? So there's a return for the sponsor. I think, personally, what people really need to do is make sure that the access to those kind of sponsors and the face time of those sponsors is equitable across different users. So exactly as Mira said earlier, if you're in a room full of, you know, forty to fifty year old white people, they may be more inclined to, to bring in a forty to fifty year old white person who looks like them, thinks like them. But it once you start disrupting that and bringing in people with different types of thought and have that equity for people coming through, you will get a better result. And it's, sponsorship is earned, but you need to make sure that people get that space to go and talk to talk to those people and have access to those sponsors. Because in turn that will accelerate and mirrors example, I think it's fantastic where you get sponsored into one thing, you do a great job at that, and suddenly you find another sponsor response you to something else. And it's a great way to move up the ladder, which isn't limited to a male or female perspective. But I do think that because of the organizational structures that we have and the predominance of of male at the more senior level, it is a harder nut for female leaders to crack when we support that. And then the other piece for me is that mentoring, which is it's driven by the individual. If you want to be mentored, you need to own that because that is something that you identify. I wanna develop, and I need someone who's gonna help me develop, and then you need to think about the right person to help you. And the contract between you and your mentor is driven by you, and it's about getting better at your role. That sponsorship may come out of that mentoring as well. You may end up with a mentor who becomes a sponsor, but it should initially be driven by you to say these are the things I wanna do. And mentoring programs, I think, are really important, should be supportive, should be embedded in organizations. And we just need to make sure again that there's active access to that. So you have your best people regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation, regardless of race, going into those mentoring opportunities on equal basis. Brilliant. You're Emma, Mira, you're both nodding away, so I wanna get your perspective on this as well. So, Emma, first, if I throw to you. Yeah. No. I I I completely echo what Jada was saying, and I think there's lots of what Mary has talked to that resonates with me. I'm I'm working with Jared now because I took a sideways move, and I think that you can gain a lot from that, like I said, experience and and understanding of the organization as a whole. Again, I've been I've had positions where I've been and I you know, it's it's particularly in the supply chain. You get an opportunity and an insight into the organization as a whole much quicker than anybody else does, and that then presents opportunities for you to get an understanding, you know, of of kind of the leaders in in the the strategic kind of objective of the business. So I definitely advocate for, you know, those five way steps to broaden that experience and skill set. And I agree, as Jag said, the two you know, mentorship and sponsorship are two different things and, can help you in very different ways. Brilliant. And, Mara, did you have anything else to add to that? That was it. I was just nodding because I'm in in Ireland. Agreement. Completely agree. Yes. Yes. A good comment. So then what are the effective ways to build those internal networks or communities that support that professional development, be it female, you know, what whatever whatever position you're in, just putting the right person in the right place. Can can I give a a a male answer? And then let you lean on leave and my colleagues to give you a a better answer. I think sometimes people are not scared or not scared, apprehensive of using their difference to create opportunity. So I think sometimes you see high performing women that shy away from the internal networks, the women business networks, and things like that because they see it as kind of presenteeism rather than using an opportunity. And from my point of view, you have to use the opportunities that you have. You have to build your own luck. No one's lucky. You all work for it. And those networks exist to give people an opportunity to do things and to get exposure. And I really think sometimes sometimes people can be apprehensive about doing that, but you should utilize those networks to gain gain visibility as long as it doesn't become a full time career going to those networks. You use them at the right time to do those things. I'd really advocate that people should do that. And I will hand across a month to, one of my colleagues who will hopefully, help me out and give me more views. I I would say for me, I think it's been, the relationships that I've been able to build both internally and externally. So how I've used both of those kind of, I guess, opportunities to and I'm not gonna use the word network because it is more about building relationships around common, you know, common interests or shared problems and how we could, you know, how we can share best practices, share insights. And that, for me, has been a really useful way to kind of build those build those relationships and get a broader understanding of some of those challenges internally, externally, and helps, I think, in terms of creating that kind of community where, people can then, kind of, you know, can can feel safe to then, contribute more. So I think if you feel that you are in a supportive network, you you're gonna take those risks, and you're going to put yourself forward for, for that stretch. So I think as as I think taking those opportunities and taking those risks and creating that environment, again, like, we we my personal experience is that I work within an environment where we create safety and therefore, to take those risks and to put yourself out there. Know that you're supportive and that somebody's got your back. It's it you're not set up to fail. I think that's really important. But, again, that comes down to relationships. Absolutely. I think I think it's really important to feel feel comfortable around who you're with as well and and be able to speak up, take and take those steps forward. So a huge part of that is is diversifying. So not not you know, as Jared was saying, just putting the right person in the right position no matter what. So keeping those really diverse teams. So I'd be interested to hear from each of you an example of where a team with varied perspectives has actually improved problem solving or operational outcomes. So I think I I can answer that right now. I mean, so I've used I in my team, I've got currently, there's a number of new, people that have joined the team, and I'm spending a lot of time reflecting actually on the diversity within the team, the diversity of thought, and, actually, the the kind of constructive challenge that we we have as a team, and the way that is enabling us to overcome challenges that we've had and come up with solutions for those challenges. So I think that, we're gonna you know, we will I will read the rules of that. We're in the in the process of kind of of of working through it, but it's definitely been, for me, really, again, motivating and and it's something that I'm really proud of in terms of see that diversity within the team and the fact that we're able to, have that again in a safe environment and be able to kinda not have quick think. So that's something we definitely don't have as quick think, which, again, is, you know, will will lead to more, better, you know, problem solving and decision making. Brilliant. So, yeah, that diversity of thought. So, Meera, then how have you seen that diversity of thought contribute to stronger decisions? Yeah. I thought, really good points, and I was I was going to say pretty much the same thing. So, you know, I've been lucky to have teams that are not just sort of diverse on a gender level, but there's people from different cultural backgrounds countries. And and it is it is truly so that when when you have when you don't hire just yourself, you know, the the model of yourself or or what you think, you know, to to have a homogeneous team culture, then you do get challenged. So you do you do get challenged on decisions maybe earlier, and you you ask better questions. So I've noticed that these team members might focus on a different point that is completely missed generally in in a process, you know, that that's related to maybe ethical questions or risk mapping or, you know, geographical challenges of certain regions where we shouldn't really have, activity in the supply chain because there are some geopolitical, stresses in that area that that might have not been known to us. But because they come from that area, then they they have a very different perspective. Also, in terms of, you know, knowing how maybe the local legislation works and and things like, you know, unfortunately, bribery and corruption does exist in in in some regions. And when you have people that understand that in certain markets, we have to walk really carefully when we we do activity there. I have found that those individuals have really helped, you know, make those make those projects, make those, supply chain stronger and better better prepared for a lot of the issues that, you know, exist in the world today. So I think without going into detail detail, that that's been really my my experience as well as my colleagues. Yeah. I think that's a I think that's a great point as well. You know? People picking up on different things, and that's that's goes to personality types as well as cultural backgrounds and gender backgrounds. So, Jared, then from a male perspective, how do you see the relationship between diverse leadership teams and then overall business performance? So, look, I think there are different ways to measure success. So let let me suggest a couple that we we might wanna talk about. So retention and stickiness of your team, building a strong performing team, and and having a cohesive whole is incredibly important, and you achieve that through having different people. If you have a set of all the same people, you just will find that they clash constantly, and you end up with a less sticky team. And that turnover and attrition becomes a problem because you your outcomes become less. But when you talk about pure procurement outcome, I'm gonna give you a small plug for a book, which is actually a children's book. But, I think it's really useful when you when I think about this lens. So there's a book called Everybody Saw a Cat, which is written by a a child psychologist. And you you may have read it. If you haven't, I even as an adult, I'd recommend it. But it shows you a cat from from the perspective of different animals in essence, but a cat to a mouse is very different to a cat to a human. And I, occasionally read it to my child to to attempt to try and get us to the point where she stops bullying me. But, you know, may may maybe we'll get there at one point. But it's it's really important when we talk about indirect procurement specifically that the strategic context of where we are and where we wanna go, if we understand that within our business only, then our outcomes will will be suboptimal. Because when you talk about a business like Santander, we spend, let's call it, about £1,400,000,000 in The UK with supplies. They are equivalent sized to our employee headcount. So if only our employees have done that context, then we failed. I think we've all been in meetings where we've given a message in a meeting, or we've talked to someone in a meeting or multiple people. And if the four people in meeting, everyone gets a different message. So I think the importance of understanding how messages line with different people and having people that can translate and provide those messages in in a different context to make sure you get that strategy to embed with these suppliers. Then you don't get that strategic drift where you miss your outcomes. So for me, I think there's my internal organization, why it's healthy for my internal organization, but it's why it's really healthy how we communicate to our supply chain as well. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, everyone. That brings us to the end of our our main discussion. We have a little bit of time left for a q and a section, so I like to pose these to you as quick fire questions. So if I can get everyone to answer in thirty second snippets, if possible. But my first question that I have here, I'm gonna throw first to Meera, is where do you see the most effective career development opportunities occurring within supply chain organizations today? I'd say today, they will happen in, probably cross functional projects. So when there's a large project that is touching multiple, parts of the business, this is where you really get to build your brand and, unfortunately, during crisis. So supply chains are currently seem to be in a continuous crisis after COVID. You know, we have lots of wars and destabilization. So when you're able to present yourself well in those, events and become and just pivot quickly, I think that's a really good way to to be seen and to build your brand and your experience and and, career. And there's actually a really interesting study called the Glass Cliff study that says that women are often put in control in a crisis. So that's an interesting take. Amazing. So, Emma, again, then same question to you. Where do you see the most effective career development opportunities within the supply chain organization? I think it comes back to, maybe, Jack's point around the diversity of the supply chain and innovation and AI and disruptive disruption. So how do, I guess, again, see the opportunities there to look at how we can bring in innovation into into the supply chain, the value that can that can add to the organization, and that kind of curiosity behind understanding what more our suppliers can do for us, and how we can how that return on investment can be realized. So I think that's where those opportunities, I think, for us to kind of lead with that activity and and bring something different, and that really changes what we do as an organization. Fabulous. And, Jared, then any any different perspectives on where the opportunities lie today? So not not necessarily opportunity, but I'd I'd talk about characteristics. So generally speaking, I think in most industry, if you wanna be a CPO, you end up working for a coup or a CFO. So I think if you can see characteristics where you can show that you have financial due diligence, you understand how numbers work. That will always play well to a CFO and people that make decisions at that level. And for coup, you need to understand how things work, how the organization actually functions, and how you manage and mitigate risk. So those kind of cross functional things that that Mira talks about, I think, are really key for that as well. Fabulous. So for this next question, I'm gonna ask you just to give me one assumption. So the question here is what common assumption about progressing into supply chain leadership roles needs to be challenged? Mira, I'm gonna refer to you again. I'm going to say the assumption of that you have to be an alpha negotiator and the loudest person in the room and control the room when you go into as a supply chain. Executive, no. I think the executives that get the most respect are not the loudest. They're the ones that understand, sort of are able to sit away from the situation and and analyze, use data well, and, you know, understand also the p and l. So I think I think, that's the one assumption that I just really dislike, and I think it's dated. And, it's not as effective as as everyone claims it to be. So, Jared, I'm actually gonna go to you next because you are nodding away there. A different a different assumption, please. What assumption needs to be challenged? How about that you have to have a procurement supply chain qualification? I think as we progress, a lot of kind of basics that are taught in those will be replaced by automation. And you need to know the business and, I mean, I work for CFO, which is why I keep mentioning finance, but you need to be finance financially literate. Fabulous. And finally, Emma, then what assumption do you wanna challenge? I don't know if I can feel it from what we're here and Jared has all be covered because I think in terms of those kinda key assumptions that there are, I think that they they kinda cover most of the things that are assumed and relevant. So alright. Finally then, we'll round up on one more question. We've got time for one more. But, Emma, I'll throw it to you first so that they don't steal your answers. What advice would you give to a professional that is seeking clarity on their next career step at mid management level? So I think that to to have a conversation, with the with the the people around them, to get that direction and support, in terms of what are the next steps that they need to take. I think you have to take ownership of that, and you have to, drive that drive that conversation and drive, those career opportunities. And I think that you need to take risks with it, and you need to back yourself and and be confident with with what you can achieve. Fabulous. Jared, I'm gonna throw it to you. I'll try and be as brief as possible on this, but this is my Mullah Corner theory of career progression. So Mullah Corner yogurts, You've got the yogurty bit, which not everyone loves, and you got the nice bit that you put on top that, generally speaking, is my favorite bit. Work out what the nice bit is for you. Try and maximize that. Minimize the the bit that you don't like because you're better at the jobs that you enjoy. So it doesn't matter what the job looks like or what the title is. Work out what you enjoy and try and gear yourself towards that. That is not endorsed by Mueller, just in case there's any queries on that. And there's that that a phrase isn't there? If you love what you do, you won't work a day in your life. So I wanna give the final word then to Mira here. So one piece of advice. A lot of it was already said, but I do want to say that, an important one is to have a direct conversation with your manager or your one up manager, and you need to I would say that you expressively explicitly say that this is what I want. So if you want to be next level, you see you you actually bring it to them to say, I want to go up to the next level. What do I need to do to get there? This is what I did. So in the beginning of my career, I had a if I can say, I had a two up conversation with the general manager of the procurement function. And he asked me, like, a general question. So what do you think about your career progression? And I I I could see that he was expecting sort of a a lukewarm response because he has a lot of meetings with the two down people. And I I looked him in the eye, and I said, I want your job. And, you saw him for a while, and he said, excellent. And and I think that put me on a radar. So I cannot stress enough to be brave and bold and to have those kinds of conversations. Amazing. Thank you. And that what a lovely piece of advice to end on. I'm afraid that does actually bring us to the end of the session. Today, we've explored the current state of women in supply chain, the realities of career progression, the role of inclusive cultures, and the clear link between diversity and strong business performance. If there's one key takeaway, it's that progression is not just about individual capability. It's also about visibility, support structures, and the environment's organization creating talent. A big thank you to Amazon Business for sponsoring today's conversation, and all of our panelists, thank you so much. And to our audience at home, if you do want to watch this again, it will be online available shortly. So come back, watch it again, and share it with your colleagues. So thank you for joining us today, and goodbye. 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